Okay idk if you just want me to infodump about gay people or WHAT but I'm gonna do just that because I like talking about FAGGOTS (batjokes). idk where to begin but!!!!Batjokes is a pretty controversial ship, mostly because of the conflicting moral codes and also what Joker did to Barbara and Jason, and while I find these valid reasons to dislike Joker I also think the hate against Batjokes for those reasons in particular are kind of weak because of the way that comics work! Like Jason is alive now and Barbara is able to walk, and while they also deal with the trauma every single day, these things are not near as serious as irl... like people tend to moralize media heavily and yeah I obviously think you shouldn't consume weird fucking media there is a line but I also think the hatred for Batjokes is overdone and kind of annoying atp!!!! I also dislike the way people mark Lego batjokes and telltale batjokes as the only "good" ones bc ? Yes they're much less "toxic" than comic batjokes, but they're still toxic? Telltale literally had you using John for your own personal gain (no matter how kind you are to him! this is always the case!) and Lego batjokes is a movie for kids but they're still TOXIC in it like?$!$!$ I dont understand ppl at all... These lead me to comic batjokes so let's dive right in. Theyve been fighting for a LONG time and their relationship has gone down multiple different routes. Honestly they're commonly written as if they're two sides of the same coin (I feel like this idea worked better in older comics? I could go into why but just know now adays ppl don't know what to do with Jokers character so he's just taken on a lot of roles). I think n52 (52 issue run of batman from 2011-2016) has some of the craziest material for them. In death of the family (not to be confused with death IN the family, when Jason Todd is killed) Joker basically sets out to prove that not only does he know the entire families identity, he claims he knows Bruce more than any of the others. essentially he sets out to prove he's the most important thing in Batmans life, and that his family is holding him back from his true potential, of course Batman denies this but it doesn't stop Joker from making a big case for it (no matter how deluded it is!). Joker supposedly dies in the last issue, but we also find out at one point Bruce literally went to Jokers cell in Arkham and supposedly revealed his identity to Joker, but Joker (supposedly) wasn't receptive and shouldn't have really know. Now in Batman: Endgame, Joker comes back and he's pissed because of Bruce's rejection, here they fight in a cave and end up dying together, there's some really amazing unused variant art for this story arc of them as the lovers of voldaro (yes literally!) Bruce also calls Joker his friend while they're dying and that's...really crazy. Bruce also kind of matches his freak during their fight (begging Joker for forgiveness over something [I won't go into detail bc this is already long and it's unimportant in the grand scheme of things] and Joker being visibly unsettled by it). There's also a lot of sexual tension in this fight, like Bruce biting part of Jokers ear off and some (maybe unintentional?) positioning that makes them look like they're having sex. IN THE END when they do die together it's revealed that Bruce isn't actually dead. Later on in super heavy (??? I think???it's this arc???) a Bruce who is trying to recover from amnesia (on the verge of remembering he's batman) sits with a fellow amnesiac Joker on a bench and they talk. ($+39$+$8+*($; THEY LITERALLY FIND EACH OTHER NO MATTER WHAT and... it's hard to explain but when it's revealed that he's talking with Joker we get this text. "On the one hand it could be something bad. Something that destroys everything you've built. Something that transforms your whole night... into a nightmare. On the other hand it could be a revelation. In fact the Gotham card... that card could be your best friend in a long time." AND IT CUTS TO JOKERS FACE there's much more to say but!the word limit ! agh!